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07/05/2006: "Moderated Musings"

music: Lawyers in Love - Jackson Browne
mood: Resigned and satisfied

Over the weekend, I got the boot again from moderators over on IMBAS-public Yahoo. This time it was

Bob Daverin having the fun after his wife Brenda called us out onlist for ignoring new moderator Lisa Harmon's urging for us to cool off the CR FAQ - Newton Slander topic. I honestly didn't see the moderator's post at first - usually a moderator will place the word "Moderator" in the subject topic to get our attention when we start seeing red in the middle of a heated debated. Lisa is a newby to this however, and it didn't get done. Bob, myself and a couple others missed it until his wife called us on the carpet. I kept on after Bob's apology (wow moderators get apology for being ignored, but distinguished Celtic culture authors get slandered and the IMBAS silence is deafening when you wait for the words, "We're Sorry"), and got the moderator muzzle secured in a hurry.

No loss on my part really. It had degenerated into the ridiculous by then. Bob accused me of personal attacks on my blog; I responded that there were none that were "personal" and he is always welcome to respond to my criticisms of his moderatorship abilities and his errors when it comes to Celtic traditions and mythos. Really, despite our debates, none of this is personal, however. Bob is the first one to rail about honor and truth (remember the Searles O'Dubhain affair) yet shows precious little of it to anyone on list who disagrees with him or his positions.

Slandering scholarly writers whose jockstraps you can't carry because you are more concerned about PC than CC (Celtic Culture) will get you rapped here. And the rap goes out to Erynn Laurie, and Kathryn Price NicDhana for their positions they have taken publicly on the FAQ and Imbas-public website calling Dr. Michael Newton a racist and misogynist writer due to his content in "Handbook of Scottish Gaelic Culture", and on Bob and Brenda Daverin for refusing to standup publicly on their IMBAS-public list and refute the slander.

To the few of you on IMBAS that wrote me in support, thanks. To the several of you who wrote just to rag the Daverins, Laurie, or NicDhana, open your mouth and bitch louder publicly to them instead of complaining to me. They won't believe it until they see it from you. To the 500 other sheep on IMBAS that are the typical American apathetics, thanks for nothing. The day Alexei Kondratiev stops posting on IMBAS-public will be the day the list stops having any relevance when its comes to being a resource for a student studying Celtic traditions, mythos, language and culture. The day writers like Dr. Newton are not defended on IMBAS against slander will be the day IMBAS becomes just another neopagan fluffy bunny list. Sad days indeed!

Replies: 5 Comments

on Friday, July 7th, ces said

Hey, Tearlach!

Actually....this whole business has been very educational for me. I took this whole blowup & issue off to other boards/groups I post on for comments and opinions--and guess what? Nobody particularly cares about what the IMBAS/Seattle CR crowd thinks. They're viewed as "my way or the highway" people & if they want to diss the likes of Dr. Newton & the inestimable Mr. Kondratiev, well there goes what little credibility they had left. As for the rest of the bloody FAQ--too long, too fluffy in places, too PC, too much self-aggrandizement mixed up with begging for validation.

I am curious if anyone's heard anything from Alexei (although I'd be surprised given the man's innate courtesy & kindness)--if I were him, after all I've done & written, I'd feel seriously thrown under the bus at this point.

No, I didn't speak up on IMBAS list--you were doing just fine and after going through a couple of similar bar fights there several years ago, I moved on and have only stuck around to read whatever Alexei cares to post. If that makes me sheep, well baa-f***king baa--I am an Aries...

ces

on Friday, July 7th, Tearlach Roibeard Luder said

CES: Thanks for the post. Sorry for throwing you in with the sheep (your reply was too funny). I realized after I wrote it and received a few emails from people like you that most of the people on IMBAS who never post ARE only there for the gems AK posts and don't wish to tackle the inmates running the asylum. My only caveat to your position is that until a large number of people on Imbas stop complaining about this type of crap on other boards and make their opinion known on Imbas, nothing changes. They have backed down from stupid decisions before after public outcry. The sad thing is I honestly feel most of the members on IMBAS really don't know what to think about this and do throw up their hands and say, Oh Well.

I haven't heard anything from Alexei and I wouldn't blame him for being upset (if indeed he even is). For someone who posts as much as he does, I have never seen a more giving, yet self effacing person on-list. His post about Newton's caveat showing a lack of judgment was about as close to a "bar room" punch as you'll ever see, and it was still tastefully and respectfully presented.

The FAQ is about 50% too long, but then when you want to make it a book and sell it, you have to have something to print. My major gripes were that it was way too PC, lacked respect for true Celtic scholars work, and was misleading (I'm being nice with that word) when it came to trying to claim that CR was a movement from within Celtic culture. NicDhana's group is also from the Northeast US, so being a Celtic divvy is not limited to the Seattle area. There were some people in Seattle who privately contacted me disagreeing with her PC ravings about Newton, and did speak out on list.

The typical howls from Daverin, NicDhana, and Laurie saying "if you could do better, go for it" are the expected reactions from people who can't take constructive criticism, yet still want to be out there on the leading edge of things. Their claims that "you could have been there and been a part" belie the facts that I *was* there and saw people raise questions about the Newton slander and they were ignored. Their response on IMBAS-public shows that they are unable to handle honest criticism and are generally anti-Celtic when it comes to real Celtic material and scholarly authors, so being there on CR/R live journal and voicing the same would only get you booted again. I could take that FAQ and rework it in 48 hours, and have a much more accurate presentation of what their CR *really* is, but 1. Its copyrighted and they would never allow it and 2. If they did, they wouldn't stand for what the finished product was.

My anger for what they did to Newton and, to a lesser extent, Kondratiev on the FAQ and on IMBAS-public has yet to settle. I am deeply ashamed of what my fellow Americans have done here against real friends and defenders of Celtic culture. I have said it before and I'll say it again: The day Alexei says he's through with IMBAS is the day you can close that list and make it archival.

on Friday, July 7th, ces said

Well, damn, Tearlach! Why not fire up Celtic Nation & make it the other white CR meat??? Goodness knows you've got the drive & the knowledge. There's only so much copyrighting they can claim, why concede these idiots their attempt to establish a monopoly?

When they claimed they were a movement from within Celtic culture, they lost me right there. Damned if I don't know cultural imperialism when I see it. So leave them to their little mind games & take it where you can make a genuine difference!

As well I think trying to fix things on IMBAS is an exercise in futility. The people in charge have drunk the koolaid & they're not going to change. They have too much emotion & self-esteem invested in all this to do something like be fair or objective, let alone admit gasp! that they might have erred. Kinda like trying to teach a pig to sing: it doesn't work and it annoys the pig.

So go for it! I'll come & play in that sandbox...and pass the word to the people I know. I don't know how many would show up, but I bet it would be more than just me and you.

on Saturday, July 8th, Tearlach Roibeard Luder said

CES, I appreciate the kind words. Myself and several others have already been working on some things that will be announced soon, but which are in no way any kind of reaction against IMBAS or the CR FAQ gang. Our intent was announced on the CNUSA website front page back on 6/20/06. When it is ready to come forth, we will announce it there as well. Look for something around Lughnasa.

Laurie and NicDhana's Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism is nothing more than a modern Pagan attempt by Americans who left Wicca, who have no living experience in Celtic cultures and cannot speak the languages, to create a spiritual path based on some sort of imagined Gaelic matriarchal Utopia that never was and probably never will be. They take what they want from the cultures, deny what they don't want, and dismiss anyone who disagrees with their efforts as trolls, or worse, by calling them racist women haters. Anyone who wants to be a part of that is free to jump in and join club. Although their scholarship is better than most of the neopagans out there, it is Celtic flavored at best. As I have said elsewhere, it would be like a group of American neopagans deciding to start a Sioux Recon group to recreate what might have been, while calling the Sioux racist, woman haters and trolls while they attempt this.

As far as reconstructing anything, why try to recreate with an imperfect worldview that which is already there? Knondratiev through his "Apple Branch" already points to ways to develop a personal Celtic spirituality that finds it strength in Celtic cultures, honors and respects them, yet can still be polytheistic in nature. This is what I have worked with for the last seven years and I have found rewarding results.

Having run a large email group, it has been my repeated experience that when the principles, the principals, or the interests of a group come under fire, there is usually a strong outcry by list members against those taking the actions against. Once a Celtic list owner, after coming on to the Celtic Nation list with a sock puppet email addy, flamed me, the list, and the people there. The outcry against her action was so strong, she had to switch her own list to moderated only/all members approved because so many CN members were joining and protesting her flames and unethical acts. Other times the defense was vocal on list. My point is what when people are passionate about something to which they belong, they support and defend it, sometimes with equal passion.

There are 550+ people on Imbas-public. Outside of the 1 moderator, not a single member of IMBAS-public came to the defense of Laurie, NicDhana, or the Daverins over the CR FAQ racist issues once they were raised (I leave out C.Lee Vermeers because his support was qualified with some dissent as well and he was a part of the CR FAQ writing team). That is a strong message right there. There were many more dissenters. More importantly, look at who the dissenters were: Alexei Kondratiev (former? Imbas officer), Chris Thompson (former? IMBAS officer), Vanya Tucherov (still an Imbas public moderator and former Imbas Secretary) along with myself and several others. Not exactly people I would call trolls, racist or woman hater supporters, would you? These people have been around the block a time or two when it comes to issues like this. The rest of the list sat quietly. If I was the moderator of IMBAS, I would open up a poll and see how their list membership really feels about current moderatorship, Laurie and NicDhana's FAQ, and the issues involved. That would go along way to seeing where everyone stand on these issues.

Thank you for your kind offers of help. When the time comes soon, I will be asking you for it. You and I won't be the only players in the sandbox ;-).

on Monday, July 10th, ces said

Alrighty, 'nuff said! I'll be looking forward to it!